PvP game design
#26
a PS2/PS3/Xbox style controller with Wii-style position/orientation detection and a small keyboard on it would help a lot. the keyboard would of course be too small to 'type' on, but it would be just the right size for your thumbs.

I hear that the current generation of kids are real whizzes at 'thumbing'.

-ken
New World: Snowreap
Life is Feudal: Snowreap Iggles, Taralin Iggles, Preyz Iggles
Naval Action: Taralin Snow, Snowy Iggles
EQ2: Snowreap, Yellowtail, Taralin, Disruption, Preyz, Taralynne, Snowy, Snowz
ESO: Snowreap, Yellowtail
PS2: Snowreap
GW2: Snowreap, Yellowtail, Preyz, Taralin, Taralynne
RIFT: Snowreap, Yellowtail, Preyz, Taralin, Snowy
PotBS (British): Taralin Snow, Taralynne Snow, Snowy Iggles, Edward Snow
PotBS (Pirate): Taralin Snowden, Taralynne Snowden, Redshirt Snowden
WW2O: Snowreap
WAR: Snowreap, Preyz, Lbz, Leadz, Snowz, Taralin, Snowmeltz, Yellowtail, Snowbankz
APB: Snowreap, Sentenza
STO: Snowreap@Snowreap, Snowz@Snowreap
AoC: Yellowtail, Snowreap, Snowstorm, Redshirt
WoW (Horde): Snowreap, Savagery, Baelzenun, Wickedwendy, Taralin, Disruption, Scrouge, Bette
WoW (Alliance): Yellowtail, Wickedwendy, Snowreap
AC1: Snowstorm, Yellowtail, Shirt Ninja, Redshirt
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#27
Slamz Wrote:We definitely need better controls for PC games, and the Wii Remote is a great concept. I understand there's a new version of it in the works that's supposed to be more accurate / less twitchy.

In WW2O, I often think about how unnatural it is to use a mouse to control a gun. Ideally, you should just be holding a gun and using a projector to display the game image on your wall, however big that wall is. Even if you have to use a keypad and buttons on the gun for moving and other activities, at least the aiming and shooting part should feel natural.

And there's no reason we can't do that today. Wii type controllers should become a new standard for PC gaming. The mouse would still be superior for some games, I think, but you could do a lot with a Wii style controller backed by a PC gaming rig.

There are of course items such as a steering wheel or a gun that you can place the Wii remote in already. Steering wheel for mario kart and im not sure what the gun was for, but I have seen it.

Arming for the future
Kakarat Keys ~ Thief ~ Guild Wars 2
Kakarat ~ Shaman ~ WoW ~
Kakarat ~ Witch Hunter ~ WAR:AoR
Riona ~ Knight of the Blazing Sun ~ WAR:AoR
Kakarat ~ Swashbuckler ~ EQ2 ~ Venekor
Eef Eigten[F-18]~ 60 Aracoix Rogue ~ Shadowbane
Kakarat ~ 60 Ogre Warrior ~ EQ ~ VZ
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#28
Uh sorry but Wii controller is far beyond any useful application. It is inaccurate, made even worse if you dont calibrate it and place receiver in the proper spot. its only success is getting non gamers to buy the system based on gimmicks. Very few of the games actually involve any skill. About as much skill as blowing into NES cartridges or putting the cartridge in a certain way to get it to run.
[should not have shot the dolphin]
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#29
Vllad Wrote:1. Dump class based games. Let people decide themselves how to play their characters. It doesn't take a genius to prevent the Plate Wearing Mage Healer with Duel wielding swords.
Absolutely. You could train or retrain for anything and be reasonably good at it. Experience killing other players makes you better at that type of combat. If you untrain something you lose some, but not all of your experience based skill.

Vllad Wrote:2. Holy Trinities are pve based concepts. When you take care of number 4 you will solve number 2. First start with healing. Planetside had very little healing. You just don't need it.
Agreed. Healing in a PvP game quickly turns it into a game of "who has the most healers".

Vllad Wrote:3. You can impliment FPS theories to the RPG chaundra. AoC did some of that. If you want to hit something with a sword you walked up to it and hit it. If it runs you follow it and hit it from behind. Dump AOE concepts totally. They break every game. If you want to hit something with spells you have to aim and hit it. If it moves bummer for you. Same with friendly spells. You need to aim to hit it.
AoE can still be done, but it should hit friendly targets that are in range. The idea that your flamethrower is going to hit your targets, but NOT your buddy standing right next to them is ridiculous. If you want to use aoe, go for it, but you just can't use it indiscriminately or you'll wipe out your own team as fast as the enemy.

Vllad Wrote:4. PVE reliance breaks every pvp game. I am not saying you can't do both but very few people have ever gotten this right. If I can't log in and with in 5 minutes be pvping and can actually tell I am contributing your game is broken.
Yep. Warhammer is by no means perfect, but they got some things right in this department. I played Shaggles from 1-40 with hardly PvEing at all, and had much more fun doing it that way.

Vllad Wrote:5. Build the game so that 200 people can stand in the same place and pvp. Games that look good never perform well. Spell effects and fancy graphics make pvp games worse not better. If you are looking at the pretty lights when you are in the midst of a pvp fight you are not a good pvper anyway.
Yes. Effects need to scale down depending on the load. Fireball on one person? Big graphics. Fireball on 50? Much less. One thing that is difficult is that a large part of MMO strategy tends to be recognition of what your opponent is about to do. If they go into the 3 second animation for "Head Exploder" you know you have to do something quick or you're hurting. Somehow that ability to react to opponents needs to be done with minimal strain. An example from Warhammer is the system shuts down other players effects when there is a high server load. The downside of that is that you can be standing in a Purple Pit of Death and never know it because your gfx got turned off.

Vllad Wrote:As long as RPG games are in the Fantasy chaundra I don't expect any of these things to change. The next really good pvp we ever play will probably be of a different chaundra or something completely new anyway. If you are building a fantasy game you are automatically competing with WoW. That means you have real money behind you and pressure to fuck up your game.

The next great game will be something we totally didn't expect. The Wild West, Sci Fi, Japanese Samurai or something crazy like that.
Vllad
I have had some ideas about a armagedonish/horror based MMO. Werewolves, vampires, zombies and armored marines. Each with a different style of play. All versus eachother. Remember that car ride home from Vegas, Blhurr?
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#30
Sounds like you guys are kinda describing the 'Ravenloft' D&D campaign/realm setting

Combining darksun and ravenloft would hardcore! Survival would be damn near impossible

temperate regions = ravenloft
tropical regions = darksun


http://arcona.wordpress.com/2009/03/27/t...-settings/
[should not have shot the dolphin]
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#31
the problem is, everyone is trying to reinvent the wheel. most of what you all want in a pvp game has already been mechanically applied, tested and well balanced for years.

Think back to a mud called Dragonrealms. while its not 3d, it has all of the gaming mechanics (well most of, wasnt able to ferret out all of them from these previous 2 pages)
you are looking for in an RPG, it just needs to be made graphic to work.

armor: in DR high grade armor was virtually no use to anyone who did not have the appropriate skill to utilize it.
you could put top tier armor on a newbie and they would die just as fast as if they had newbie armor on. once you worked your skill up in that armor type, it became more useful. and if you worked up light chain mail up quite respectfully, then found a nice piece of platemail, your chainmail skill wouldnt help a bit, you would then need to work up plate etc.

aiming: in DR alot of damage magics require aiming, this is brought into play by a skill called targeted magic. Your primary magic skill would control how much mana you could use/vs damage output, but if your targeted magic was low, you would miss virtually every time, regardless of your level or primary magic skill. think the check was caster PM skill (for mana/damage) + caster TM skill+agility vs target evasion skill(evasion would also reflect burden/ability to move in current armor::armor skill::+hinderance of armor + reflex.

a target in leather would have a better chance of evading then one in platemail

aiming-range weapons:, this went off of skill with ranged weapon and time.
something like, rangeweaponskill+agility+time vs target evasion skill+reflex, on a hit, armor modifier would kick in etc. merely snap shooting a target required much more skill in primary-range weapon, to hit target then when you aimed and waited for optimal time to elapse. while im not positive if this "optimal time" ever decreased based on any skill set, i do know that some targets which were nearly impossible to hit just snap shooting, could be hit using aim/wait for optimal time.

Spells: in DR, spells which didnt require a targeting element, were based solely on primary magic, however the target got a resist check called discipline(on some) one spell called "icepatch" would make you trip, break a leg etc, it checked against agility, high agility would virtually nulify the spell.

ranger spell "swarm" it was a dot, that if too much mana was used and killed the target too fast, the swarm of insects would seek out the next target, and that sometimes was the caster if he and target were only ones in room, kinda cool spell, not one to use lightly.

Multitarget: in DR having two foes at melee range cut your defenses down, each additional one cut them down even more. where as someone with 100 evasion skill could dodge a person attacking them with 10 attack skill virtually all day, barring the possible lucky critical. with 10 people of same skill on the 100 evasion, it was cut down so far, all had very good chances of hitting person.

the pvp mechanics in DR can make it where one person can take out an army, not by merely standing there in plain open taking shot after shot, but more by "rambo" type finesse. by hiding, sneaking after each attack, separating your enemys, striking hard, rehiding and resneaking etc. see invis was not an item or spell in DR, it was a skill. it was perception vs hiders "hiding skill" or "stalking skill" if he were moving while hidden. You could train perception up high enough to see people slip into hiding, but never to see them immediately upon entering an area unless you took the time to "search"

Targeting: again, in DR, you didnt just click on a mouse to get your target. you had to use first few letters of targets name, sometimes their entire name if two or more people had similiar ones or it was close in name to a monster or item etc.

overall the pvp mechanics were very complex, for an attack to hit you it had to get past
shield skill-if equipped
parry skill-if applicable
evasion skill-if above two failed or werent applicable
then it moved to armor

you had 180points to divert into shield/parry and evasion on defense. you could have shield at 160, parry 10, evasion 10 etc, but had to have something allocated in each category. say you were using your bow, and still had shield skill set at 60, parry at 60, and evasion at 60. since you dont have your parry weapon or shield equipped, any incoming attack will only have 1/3 of your evasion skill to go through.

Balance: some weapon attacks would put your opponent off balance, thus limiting their chances of evading or landing 100percent chance to hit attacks. balance was key, you could end up so imbalanced you fell to the ground thus negating any evasion/parry/shield skill, leaving only your armor to protect you.

Healing: DR's classes that could fight, could not heal at all. their healers were a non combat class that would become paralyzed if they even swung a weapon at a monster/PC etc. herbs could be used to heal to an extinct, they worked slowly and never could repair major damage.

reading back through these pages, i see that alot of stuff some of you would like to see implement, has already been done so in that MuD, too bad they havent been able to carry it into a 3d graphic engine. if it werent for the fact it was JUST a text based game, wanting more montly fees then most graphic RPGS, and add the fact they completely frown on unprovoked pvp to the point where your char would get banned even though they created arguably one of the best pvp mechanic systems yet to be seen. IMO its a shame that so much work went into a very workable pvp system but people arent allowed to use it freely. its akin to owning a ferrari and never being able to get it out of second gear cause of the cops...

go to the DR homepage, not promoting their game to play persay, because will their anti pvp rules, their game is a joke, but their game mechanics IMO are awesome, too bad they arent integrated into a MMORPG, heard they were trying but doubt it will ever get off the ground.

read through some of the magic/combat sections etc if you arent familiar with the MUD, i barely even touched on the combat system.

http://www.play.net/dr/
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