07-22-2004, 02:12 PM
That's the thing: Osama wanted a holy war because he thought that would get the Americans to leave. He thought that if he hit us, we'd take to the streets and demand Bush's resignation and demand all troops leave the middle east and demand we stop talking to Israel.
What he GOT was half the American army on his doorstep and a majority of the American people supporting it. Rather than hitting the streets and waving a sign that says "LEAVE MIDDLE EAST NOW" I did what I'm sure a majority of Americans did: I turned on the TV and anxiously waited to see whose ass we were going to kick.
It's like I said, Osama misunderstood the average American attitude. We really do have a lot of the Texan cowboy mentality in the American population. Someone blows up a building, we don't say "Oh, this is terrible, we shouldn't have been in the middle east" we say, "Oh, this is terrible, let's find out who was behind it and go kick their ass." It's easy to say "Oh, it's just Bush saying this" and while a lot of those of us here in this forum are, at best, iffy on the subject of Iraq War II, there are plenty of Americans who still fully support it. They never really needed WMD or Osama tie ins, the fact that Iraq had a guy we didn't like and we were already in the area was good enough for a lot of people. We were already swinging the stick and Bush just used the momentum to carry over into another country and I myself in not entirely sure he was wrong to do this.
So yes, Osama manipulated us with that attack, just in the complete opposite way from how he wanted.
As for American attitudes, it's always a balance between wanting to be helpful and not wanting to get lots of Americans killed in the process. Somalia is a great example. The only reason we were there as far as I understand was American outcry over petty warlords holding up (or stealing) food supplies meant for the starving masses. The American people demanded some action, but then decided we weren't so committed to it that we were willing to risk a lot of casualties. We felt the U.N. wasn't doing it's fair share and we don't feel it's a burden we should have to take up alone.
I'm sure a lot of Americans feel that "something ought to be done" about the massacres that occur in African wars but we also see a big potential for it to be bloody and we don't think it's fair that we go it alone there either.
If France, England, Germany, Italy, Russia and Canada all said, "This is terrible, something ought to be done, we're sending 10,000 troops each down to stop the bloodshed in Africa" I have no doubt that America would join in, but since the rest of the world doesn't give a damn, there's just a limit to what the American people can stand to commit to.
The real shame isn't that America doesn't get involved in all of these conflicts to Make The World a Better Place, it's that the European nations don't even pretend to care. You'd think they, of all people, would realize that when your neighbor's yard is on fire, you need to go put it out. If you wait til your yard is on fire, it'll be too late. It's easy to say, "Oh, it's just Africa" but oh-its-just-africa is the same place with plenty of mines for precious minerals and radioactive materials. A proper genocidal warlord who knew what he was doing could end up being more than a casual threat, if not directly, then indirectly by who he decides to sell his goodies to.
Like I said during that one discussion, the European memory seems to stretch about 20 years, then stops. "Isolationism works! We leave everyone alone and they leave us alone. Hey, who's this funny guy with the mustache? Why are his tanks attacking our cities? Why is he rounding up millions of people and they never come back?" (20 years pass) "Isolationism works! We leave everyone alone and they leave us alone."
It is, shall we say, bloody stupid if you ask me. In a world with missiles and bombs, there's no such thing as "someone else's problem".
Most of the opponets to the American strategy think everything would be fine if we'd just mind our own business, but I keep having to point out "we tried that once and it didn't work". What's that saying? Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice, I must be European? Why is America the only country that remembers World War II and the utter failure of the isolationist policy?
What he GOT was half the American army on his doorstep and a majority of the American people supporting it. Rather than hitting the streets and waving a sign that says "LEAVE MIDDLE EAST NOW" I did what I'm sure a majority of Americans did: I turned on the TV and anxiously waited to see whose ass we were going to kick.
It's like I said, Osama misunderstood the average American attitude. We really do have a lot of the Texan cowboy mentality in the American population. Someone blows up a building, we don't say "Oh, this is terrible, we shouldn't have been in the middle east" we say, "Oh, this is terrible, let's find out who was behind it and go kick their ass." It's easy to say "Oh, it's just Bush saying this" and while a lot of those of us here in this forum are, at best, iffy on the subject of Iraq War II, there are plenty of Americans who still fully support it. They never really needed WMD or Osama tie ins, the fact that Iraq had a guy we didn't like and we were already in the area was good enough for a lot of people. We were already swinging the stick and Bush just used the momentum to carry over into another country and I myself in not entirely sure he was wrong to do this.
So yes, Osama manipulated us with that attack, just in the complete opposite way from how he wanted.
As for American attitudes, it's always a balance between wanting to be helpful and not wanting to get lots of Americans killed in the process. Somalia is a great example. The only reason we were there as far as I understand was American outcry over petty warlords holding up (or stealing) food supplies meant for the starving masses. The American people demanded some action, but then decided we weren't so committed to it that we were willing to risk a lot of casualties. We felt the U.N. wasn't doing it's fair share and we don't feel it's a burden we should have to take up alone.
I'm sure a lot of Americans feel that "something ought to be done" about the massacres that occur in African wars but we also see a big potential for it to be bloody and we don't think it's fair that we go it alone there either.
If France, England, Germany, Italy, Russia and Canada all said, "This is terrible, something ought to be done, we're sending 10,000 troops each down to stop the bloodshed in Africa" I have no doubt that America would join in, but since the rest of the world doesn't give a damn, there's just a limit to what the American people can stand to commit to.
The real shame isn't that America doesn't get involved in all of these conflicts to Make The World a Better Place, it's that the European nations don't even pretend to care. You'd think they, of all people, would realize that when your neighbor's yard is on fire, you need to go put it out. If you wait til your yard is on fire, it'll be too late. It's easy to say, "Oh, it's just Africa" but oh-its-just-africa is the same place with plenty of mines for precious minerals and radioactive materials. A proper genocidal warlord who knew what he was doing could end up being more than a casual threat, if not directly, then indirectly by who he decides to sell his goodies to.
Like I said during that one discussion, the European memory seems to stretch about 20 years, then stops. "Isolationism works! We leave everyone alone and they leave us alone. Hey, who's this funny guy with the mustache? Why are his tanks attacking our cities? Why is he rounding up millions of people and they never come back?" (20 years pass) "Isolationism works! We leave everyone alone and they leave us alone."
It is, shall we say, bloody stupid if you ask me. In a world with missiles and bombs, there's no such thing as "someone else's problem".
Most of the opponets to the American strategy think everything would be fine if we'd just mind our own business, but I keep having to point out "we tried that once and it didn't work". What's that saying? Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice, I must be European? Why is America the only country that remembers World War II and the utter failure of the isolationist policy?